I see dead tacos.(upbeat music) I got an email saying I was approved to be able to do the advanced features of YouTube and then I could start the podcast. So I had to go through this on a lot of these different ones. One of the things that was really interesting was how stressful it got. I think that that's a common occurrence that we overlook quite a bit throughout our days. How many times a day do you get stressed out because of technology in some way? Welcome to Taco Chats and Laugh Attacks. In this episode, we dive into fubbing and techno stress, sharing how these digital headaches impact our lives. We're still figuring out this podcast thing. So while we might not have all the answers, we'll share personal stories and practical tips. Join us for a candid chat about staying sane in our tech-driven world. I think this whole process of creating a podcast is really interesting because we see a couple of different things happen. First, I see the ability to do a lot of stuff creatively, whether it's creating a logo, whether it's writing the intro to things, all these different pieces of it that is really sort of something I enjoy, right? And it's a part that I'm comfortable with in most cases. Wow. My goodness, that's the best taco. Right, so the creative piece, I'm like all in. This is so fun. I love doing this, right? And that was the thing that you and I had talked about before in our pilot was how do we enjoy creating something without it becoming like this monster of, you know, this like thing. I don't know how you'd explain it, right? Is that possible to avoid that? Well, I think I'm fighting it, right? Because that's the second piece. The second piece is the business side of it, right? I love owning a business. I do too. Right? Yeah. And I need to really stop saying right and I'm being very conscientious about it. Sorry for pointing that out.(both laughing) And so. I haven't run through the transcripts to count how many times I should do that. You should, you should. We should have a running count. Yeah. To see if there's improvement, right? I like it. In therapy, we don't look for improvement. We just look for a change, right? What's different? So if it goes up, we know that's, you know, there's progress. So the business side of it, I think is fascinating because it takes into account how do you run a business today? Now, I'm not necessarily saying that this podcast is a business, but it's the same sort of principles that you have to put into consideration. The planning, the organizing of ideas, the marketing of ideas, even to the extent where, you know, I think in a way, this is sort of like, we're sticking our thumbs at the algorithm, right? With some of the things that we've done and we can talk about that, which I think are pretty good. I'm really excited about that. How off the wall, at least I think it's off the wall. And I think it takes a certain type of sense of humor to see that where that humor is coming from and how we're doing it, which I think is neat. And part of the creative piece of it too.- Yeah, no, I love the creative piece. The follow-through, that's been the most enjoyable. Where I'm like, okay, cool. You know, it's like, you know, I know you're working on something and I'm working on something and we both are kind of, it's almost like we're accountability, you know, like we're keeping each other up and it's going. And I enjoy that. I enjoy the knocking out the task, seeing how I can make things more efficient and better. And like I said, that first one, I was like, I'm gonna figure out the blueprint. And you know, of course, then I thought, now that sounds so business, you know. Let me figure out exactly how we're gonna do this every time. But I enjoy that. But then I also have the freedom of just doing whatever the hell we feel like doing.- And that's, I think part of the freedom is not doing too. So we're hosting our site through Buzzsprout, which is really neat. It's not easy putting the podcast together and putting it out there. And Buzzsprout really did a good job of making that easier for us, people like you and I. And that's pretty neat. And I think that if you've owned a business and you've tried to do your own SEO optimization, you've done your own website, you've done all these pieces to it, and you can, and you see the advantage of something like Buzzsprout, even like the statistics, once your podcast goes out.- It's instant.- Yeah. I'm surprised we just uploaded episode one.(both laughing)- That's so funny to me.- And we already have a little bit of action on the statistics page. It's very interesting. I'm curious to see if people email us at a really complicated email address.- Right, which I think that makes this really fun.- Yeah.- Because of the algorithm, right? We get this whole like, you know, oh my gosh, when we started doing this, I was like, well, let me go look at some YouTube,'cause YouTube is like the new encyclopedia, right? And so the thing that I love is I went to YouTube and I started looking at these videos, and I'm like, these are so obnoxious. Because it's like, you have to look at the timing of the video to determine what works, what doesn't work. And I'm kind of doing this, along with this, and I'm also, you know, now let me back up a second so that our three listeners understand. My research for my PhD is based on technology and how we interact with it as a family, right? And so I'm always, I see these different things and I'm kind of one where I can go read the research on it and that might be the way it is, but the reality is I need to go see it in action, really, so that I can put a better mindset to it, right? That's just the way I think. And so one of the things that I've been super fascinated with is gaming and that gaming as a community. And I don't wanna get too far into this, but I just wanted to kind of give some background on that. So one of the other things I'm doing along with this is I'm streaming, I'm playing video games and streaming. I love video games, right? And I mean, I can't tell you how many summers I spent playing "Super Mario Brothers."- On the Nintendo or Super Nintendo?- On the Nintendo, but also, oh my gosh, there was a gas station around the corner in my neighborhood that I get like $5 a quarters and go play "Super Mario Brothers."- I did the same. Donkey Kong. - That's an investment. Donkey Kong too, yeah. And "Punch-Out!""Punch-Out!" was the other one.- Oh man, I could never get to Mike Tyson on that one.- Never, no.(mimics music)- But I love that "Super Mario" was the ref.- Yes, that was really- - Or is.- Is the ref, yeah. - Is, yeah.- So in line, these are the different things that are happening, right? You know, looking at YouTube and finding all these things out about the industry and how you create it, and you realize really fast, and I realized this years ago when I was in the photography industry, was there is a group of people who are successful at being photographers. And there's a group of people who are successful at selling ideas and how to do things to photographers.- The blueprint. - The blueprint, exactly. And I think that's that. We kind of talked about it last time, that idea of sort of faking it till you make it, right? And I don't remember when this occurred to me, but there was a point where I was at like some conference, a business conference, and learning about different marketing strategies, and it just dawned on me, and I thought this person that's talking to me spends so much time selling these ideas. When do they actually run their business of photography? And it was really sort of, you know, and when I was in this, and when I was doing photography, real early into the digital thing, and so it was becoming easier for people to get into the industry without having to have a lot of overhead with film and all those things. And so it was like, this is becoming an industry in itself, selling the ideas, selling the marketing, selling the packages. Here's these plugins, here's all these things, right? And the same thing happens in the podcast world.- Oh yeah. No, I think it was right at the beginning of the pandemic. I remember seeing videos, I couldn't name the guy, but it's like, there's a low amount of podcasts, and it's so easy. You can do it, and all you need is this, that, and the other. And of course I went out and bought it all. That's what we're using now, four years later.(both laughing) But yeah, the algorithm got me. It got me during the pandemic. I mean, I hadn't anything else to watch during the pandemic, anything else to do. So of course I was on YouTube and I just got suckered in. I'm sure the algorithm, the idea of an algorithm is way more mature since then. I think they collected a lot of data from us during that time and figured us out.- Oh, for sure.- But yeah, I got caught into that. But the guy that sold, kind of pushed the podcasting actually did have podcasts that were successful. So it was one of those guys that he just loved being on camera all the time, like 24/7. Sure his kids had to meet him through a podcast.- Yeah, and that's actually a part of my, one of the things that I research is this sort of, where how do we set boundaries around when we're doing something like online, digitally, and we're avoiding our family. There's a term that in 2012 in Australia came out and it's called fubbing. Have you ever heard of it? It means phone snubbing is what it is.- Oh, okay.- And what that is, is you're sitting there talking to somebody and they pick up their phone and they start looking at their phone, their engagement with that person has changed. And that change can create difficulty in relationships. And it's also one that can lead us into sort of not, I don't wanna say addiction. I have a real problem with like phone and gaming, all these different kinds of addictions for a whole different set of reasons. But I think that we have this situation where technology is, we're getting everything digitally now. And so we're missing some of these pieces, like watching kids, spending time with family, having present conversations, things like that.- Eye contact.- Eye contact, huge, right? When we see these things, like the guy with the pipe, you have to take that into consideration. Like I'm watching these videos on podcasts and it's like they have all these videos and I'm like, gosh, these people are spending,'cause I mean, I know what you do. I don't know how to do it, but I've dabbled in it and it's really hard to put together a video that's clean and concise and it not be something you have to outsource,'cause I can imagine it's really expensive. I mean, if I was doing it, I would charge a lot.- Yeah, I mean, the thing is, it's easy to put a video together, but to keep your quality at a certain level and consistently put that out, it is a challenge. You have to have a blueprint, back to the blueprint. You have to have a good workflow. You have to have good people on your team, but then you have to have a whole QC team and that's what we have. Nothing goes to our clients before we all see it. But yeah, sorry to go off on a tangent on that.- But I think even there, what you're saying there, that was an investment of time and mistakes in order to get there. And so it's sort of this, I'm watching these podcasts, YouTube videos and all you have to do is this and this and here's how you set your sound and here's what you can--- Just a big overview.- Right, and it's like, okay, they have gotten there from their time, investment of time and investment of adjustments to mistakes.- Yeah.- Right, which is interesting because it's that, it's the algorithm of let's make it look like it's easy, but it's not.- It's also the person putting it out there doesn't wanna admit to their mistakes or admit that it's a struggle or even putting this video together that you're watching now is causing me a big headache because this is not working or that's not working. So it's kind of like the back to the, it's like the social media where we don't put, maybe some people do, but we don't put everything out there. We don't show the negative side. We show that one highlight of your day so that it makes it look like your entire day was excellent.- Right, which I mean, in one part of it, I like it because it's encouraging to people to do things and create things. I think that's a positive.- Absolutely, but I would love to see the hardships. I'd like to figure out, I wanna learn from your mistakes. I don't wanna just learn from your summary.- And so with the podcast, with doing this, that's been something I've noticed. And I think that that's one of the things that, at least on my end, it's like, I wanna go the opposite direction of any of that. Even to the extent where here we are spending time talking about how we've created this thing, right? But the funny thing about it is that I think that's the piece that's authentic. Is that somebody might be listening to this and wanna know what it takes to create a podcast without it being this like, I'm gonna sell you how to create a podcast. I don't want anybody to, if anything, learn from the mistakes that we make, which I'm sure there's plenty. We've just avoided it or not cared, which is probably a problem. But that goes back to the algorithm. The algorithm makes us think that we have to care in a certain way, when in reality, it's really what you wanna do. And I think that's the piece for you. And I started this was that when it becomes this sort of, I'm working for an audience, I'm working for a customer, I'm working for an algorithm, we lose ourselves in that. And that's when it doesn't become fun anymore. Let's take our logo, for example, the two tacos. I love that logo. We simply took our transcript, put it in chat GPT. And I said, give me some ideas of a name for a podcast based on this transcript. And he gave us taco chats and laugh attacks.- Most people wouldn't accept that, wouldn't admit to doing that.- You know, this is the reality.- Yeah.- I think one of the things that was good is I put in there also that, I gave a little bit of description of the podcast on us too. And then I said, hey, can you make me some logos for a podcast? And it gave us a bunch of them. And there we have these two tacos. One says taco. And I think that's the thing that's so funny about it.- Yeah.- But then we got to the website.'Cause we get so wound up with, oh, I have to have a .com, I have to have a .net, I have to have--- Has to be short, simple.- It's gotta be short, simple, boom, boom, you know, all these different things. And so, you know, we went the opposite direction. We chose the worst name for the lowest price we could possibly spend.- Yeah. We thought it was gonna be .xyz,.xyz, but .website apparently is cheaper.- Right, so taco chats and laugh attacks. No, it's just taco chats.- Yeah.- I don't even remember our website.- Yeah.- Tacochats.website.- But you have to do the www because I can't figure out how to update the C name. So if we have any, that one listener, if you know how to--- Fix that.- Fix the C name so where you don't have to type in the www.- Send us an email at tacochatsandlaughattacks@gmail.com.- Yeah.- But that's the fun part of it.- It is.- You know? I was thinking about it yesterday when I was, so last night I was, I saw that we have to go and do all this submitting to have the podcast put on these different streaming services. And I thought, oh gosh, I gotta go through and figure this stuff out, right? That was, I had some, I was planning on sitting down, I was gonna play golf online. And I saw this and I looked, then it changed everything I was doing. I started diving into it and it wasn't, I'm glad I didn't. I don't regret doing that at all. I still got to play and that was fun. But the thing that was so interesting was, in doing that piece of it, just getting the podcast put on the service, right?'Cause the thing that was so funny was when we were looking at these different services and we landed on Buzzsprout, one of the things was that it will, what do they call it? It will send out your podcast to all the different services. And so I just took that as, oh, okay, we don't have to do anything.- Just push a button.- Push a button and it goes. And then after, I think it was like after like 10 hours, it showed up, it showed up with all the different ones you can go like submit for. And I thought, oh no, I gotta figure all this out.- I thought you were gonna say 10 hours of trying to submit it.- It probably felt like it.- Yeah. - Probably felt like it. But it, you know, and so I had to go through each one of these things. And some of them were really simple. I appreciate that. Some of them were complicated. YouTube, I had to go create a YouTube channel and I had to create, like I had to do like this authentication process where I took video of myself so that they can make sure I wasn't like, I guess wanted or something. I don't know, I don't really quite understand what that was for. And then I got an email saying, you know, I was approved to be able to do the advanced features of YouTube and then I could start the podcast. So I had to go through this on a lot of these different ones. One of the things that was really interesting was how stressful it got. And I think that that's a common occurrence that we overlook quite a bit throughout our days. Especially now that we're in this digital world. How many times a day do you get stressed out because of technology in some way?- Without even realizing it.- Without even realizing it. Like if you had a jar of, if you had a jar and you were to put in marbles for every time you were stressed, by the end of the day, that jar can be pretty full. And that's a heavy jar to carry, right? That's the jar that makes people wanna, you know, distract from things. Makes them wanna, you know, find other vices. And sometimes it can be such, the technology can be so stressful that we actually use technology thinking that that's what's gonna help us relax.- No, because that, those 10 hours you worked on, what felt like 10 hours you worked on a podcast, you affected your algorithm. And so now your algorithm is affecting where your mind is.- It's called techno stress.- Techno stress.- It's techno stress. It's kind of broken down into a few different things. But my question to you is, if you can think in this morning, was technology stressful for you in any way?- Yeah. So there's a new service that I'm trying to use on my laptop for messaging, because we talked about this before. I have, you know, I have a business, I have several projects going on at the same time. And so I have many different avenues where I get messages. And so from a YouTube video, from a podcast that I actually enjoy a lot, I got this idea that this one service would work. I don't wanna mention them yet because I don't know if it's gonna work. It was like a compilation of all these different message sites from multiple Instagram accounts to iMessage to just Google chat, whatever. So I got it all in the one. I was stressed over that not working exactly the way I wanted it to, to where it made me wanna just go back to all the sites, which made me stressed because I was already there and I wasn't stressed doing it the old way. And now I just added this complication to where I'm like,"Oh crap, I gotta go find all these bookmarks again"to get back to that." It's so minor, but yes, I was stressed over that.- It gives you stress.- Yeah.- The same thing last night, when I was sitting there looking at this podcast thing, I'm like, you know, and my wife was sitting in the chair next to me in my office, watching a movie. And I had to go set up, so like the YouTube thing, no, it was Spotify. So Spotify, I had to create this other account. I had to create another account. And I'm like, I don't know, you know, look, I'm 51 years old. I've had to remember a lot of passwords. And it feels like it's amplified these days with the ways that you have to log into stuff.- Yes.- Or the way that one login connects to other. And I was trying to get all this, and I was just furious. I mean, I was raging at Google and Spotify and YouTube. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. And it was just this small moment of stress, but that tears up energy, right? And it's amazing how we look at it. Like when I'm working with a client and we look at stress, we look at two things. We look at is the stress related to what could happen in the future and how far in the future is it? Or is the stress something that has grown based on other pieces? And is that piece farther back, is it looking way too far into the future? So here I am with this pet project of a podcast thinking I wanna get this. And it's like, this is an obstacle that is, it's gonna kill me if I don't get this done right. And I'm just getting angrier and angrier. And then at one point I had to stop and think, okay, this is not what I want to happen. And so I was like, I'm gonna just let it be what it is and figure it out as we go. But it was stressful. It was that thing called techno. It was techno stress is what it was. So there are one, two, three, four, five, six, five, I'm sorry, five types of techno stress. There's what's called techno overload. So I wanna know from you where you've experienced each one of these. Maybe in the last, I bet in the last 24 hours you've experienced every one of these.- Oh yeah.- I can almost guarantee it. So techno overload, right? It's the potential for information communication like smartphones to pressure a person to work faster, harder and longer hours.- Faster, having to work faster is a big, big thing. But I also enjoy that.- Yeah?- Yeah. I mean, I don't like being pressured to work faster. I just work faster 'cause I want to. But I mean, I don't know if this falls in line with what you're asking me now, but the passwords is my biggest, one of my biggest stresses. And it's not just me trying to remember my passwords, it's the kids coming in and saying,"What's the Hulu password?" I'm like, "Well, I don't even know the email login." It's just signed in.- Yeah.- So yeah, I get really stressed over that. Three kids coming in and asking me for passwords and I'm having to change it each time because I can't remember it. So I'm going through the whole cycle and you gotta make sure you have your phone so you can have this two-step and pull out the authenticator app, which one, it's a lot. So I don't know if that falls in line with what you're...- Yeah.- Yeah.- I think so. I mean, the pressure to work faster, but that's the algorithm too.- Yeah, that's true.- That's watching the videos on how to do podcasts and suddenly it's like, I get this like,"Okay, if I don't get this done right now,"then there's a chance it's gonna pass me by."- Yeah.- I don't know what that comes from. Why we feel so pressured to get it done now, right?- Is it because technology is moving so fast?- It might be. It might be. So another one is techno-invasion. And what that is, is when technology has the potential to invade your personal life. So it can mean being available at any time for any reason.- Yeah.- Totally happens to me all the time.- Yeah, totally.- I mean...- I remember not picking up the phone to call somebody after 8 p.m., 7 p.m. thinking that they're at dinner. And now I feel okay to text somebody really late.- Yeah, I texted you last night like at...- Yeah.- Late, like 11, 30, 12, late for me.- Yeah.- But I mean, the other thing is that you also have control of that on your own side. You have notification, muting and bedtime settings and all that. So I guess I just assume, oh, you have your notifications turned off if you're already in bed.- Yeah.- So I don't have that worry anymore that I'm gonna disturb someone. But also I'm not expecting a response back right away when I'm sending messages after hours or anything like that. And I'm very empathetic to my employees in that case because I know that through the pandemic and a little after we kind of ignored those boundaries and now it's my phone.- Oh, okay.- It's my algorithm checking on me.- Okay, good.- That's good coffee by the way.- I try to be empathetic with my employees and I'll start my message off and I'll send them, it's like a Google chat, let's just say, I'll send them a Google chat and say,"Not anything you need to worry about right now, but when you get in tomorrow, can you knock this out?" And that's it, it's just a simple message. And then they, most of the time they'll respond, "Got it." And I'm like, okay, I appreciate that, but I don't know how to notify someone. It's more of me trying to get it off of my brain to say, I don't have to hold it until the morning to tell them,"Hey, can you do this?"'Cause then I'll forget and then it won't get done and then it's on me. So then I have to go and tell them right away on a message so that they see it when they get in, but of course they're getting pinged and they feel the urge to respond. And so then I feel like, okay, well, I hope you don't feel like you have to, but it's a weird, it's a gray area now. I don't think it's, the boundaries are not clear anymore.- Ubiquitous.- Yes.- That would be the word for it.- Yeah, absolutely.- So I'll tell you an example when this occurred to me in another situation where I felt like I wasn't, technology was invading what I was trying to do. So my wife and I were in Spain recently and we went to the Palau de la Musica, I think that's what it's called, it's a beautiful place. You can do this tour. So we pay for the tour. We get to the entrance where you go into it and the security person says,"Oh, you just scan this QR code"and then you can follow the tour."- Hmm.- Oh, okay. So I go to scan the QR code, it brings up this page and then I got to log in, I got to create a login. I got to, and I'm like, "Golly, all I want to do"is walk into this place and look at it." Can you give me a pamphlet? I can read, right? It's no big deal.- You probably still had to get on their wifi too.- I did. I had to get on their wifi and that wasn't working. And literally the security guard came over, took my phone, set it all up for me, gave me like a separate code because clearly this keeps happening and then sent me on my way. Stupid American.- Yeah.- Right?- Yeah.- Which I was appreciative of. I really did appreciate them helping me with that because it was, I didn't have a lot of time and I wanted to get through this place. And so that was like a total invasion. I did not want to deal with technology. I wanted to go see something that was old and pretty.(laughs) And that was the goal. But I was being stopped because of technology. Definitely frustrating. Definitely stressful. Right? So another one is techno complexity. And that is, it's the pressure to continuously upgrade skills with every new software update or gadget release. I think you've already mentioned that one.- You know, it's funny. When I started out in, I started, I worked in television for about 20 years. And when I started, I wasn't sure if that's what I wanted to do. And so I went and I took a class. It was like a IT class to do networking. And MCS, something. It was basically about networking, like building networks and maintaining them in offices. And when I realized that you had to keep going to school to keep up with the changes, I was like, "Oh no, I don't want to do this." So then I went back to TV and I thought,"Okay, this is cool." And of course now I'm like,"Yeah, you have to learn about the new camera,"the new audio capture device,"the new everything, the new lighting technique,"the new everything that's out there." But there is a lot of new technology, including AI, that you kind of have to stay ahead of because your clients call and say,"Hey, we saw this, we want something like that." And then you go and do the homework and you realize,"Oh, they did that with AI,"they did that with this, that, the other." Well, you've got to stay on it. So I feel the pressure constantly to have to stay on what's going on, even if I'm not 100% invested into learning it. It's tough. But yeah, I do feel that pressure.- Do you feel like it's tougher now than when you were younger?- No, not at all. I think it's easier for me because I lived pre-internet. I lived through the way things were done the hard way, which you don't realize at that time, it was just the way you did it. But as you go on and you realize,"Oh, okay, somebody's come up with a tool"to solve that one issue"that we used to have all the time." The fact that I know how to do it the hard way already makes me feel like, "Okay, cool, I get it."I understand what they came up with."This is really cool."It's gonna make it hard to go back to the hard way,"but I can do it if I had to." So I think because of that, because of the experience has actually helped me learn it more. It's the other parts of it, not the actual practice of what it is that you're doing or what you're trying to accomplish. It's the entire process leading up to it. Like you said, it's the passwords, it's the setting up and figuring out what the hell is Discord and what the hell is this, like where do you get all this information to bring all this stuff together? That's the part that I do feel a little lost on. Where do you get your information to make this product work? And then when you have to go in and say,"Well, I wanna recode something." Well, then you gotta go down this rabbit hole of figuring out how to adjust the piece of machinery that you purchased to make your job easier. And then of course, then your algorithm's messed up and you're back in. It's the same loop, so then it's just stressing me because it's there. But yeah, I mean, the need to keep up is, it's, yeah, I love it on one side and then I hate it on the other.- You know, one of the things that you and I did last week was I was showing you Midjourney. I love Midjourney AI.- It's awesome.- It's super cool.- I had never messed with it.- And I've been messing with it for a while since it was like version two or v3, whichever, I can't remember which version, they're like on six now. And when it first came out, man, I was all learning how all these different, like, you know, all the, the way you create an image and the way that algorithm works, right? Like what do you need to have in order for it to work appropriately? And it's really one of those things, especially with AI, that it's, if you're not on top of it all the time, it's like a whole new learning curve every time you go back to it if you step away from it for a while. I know how I did it maybe six months ago. I mean, I even created a coloring book for my clients. I made a feelings coloring book, right?- Which is awesome.- I think it's hilarious. I think it's absolutely hilarious. And I mean, there was still, the images were created in mid-journey. The rest of the book was written by me and all that. But the thing that when we were doing that, there was so much more advancement in creating images that I would have had to spend two days just completely studying on it to get it to do it, to do the, take advantage of those things. And I just didn't, we just didn't have time to do that. Which is okay. But if this is something I was doing, like I needed to create images, I would have to stay on top of that all the time. That can be stressful. The other place where techno complexity can come into play is, and this is more in sort of a corporate world. Like I saw this numerous times, both when I was working in IT, doing software development, but also when I was doing, stuff where I was using enterprise software, things like that. And when they would have large upgrades or changes, and it would change how you would do stuff. And it would just be stressful for everybody. And when you look at it in a work environment, and there is some research looking at sort of techno stress and how it affects work environments, is that when we have to either always stay up to speed on those things, which if you're in like software development or you're in something creative, that's part of the creative endeavor to know that stuff. But if you're, if you're an accountant in a company and the software you use gets changed and you have to now know and learn all these different pieces, that's outside of your wheelhouse. And that's stressful. That creates a lot of stress. And whether or not companies recognize that or not, I don't know. But it's one of those kinds of things where when we're talking about stress and are we looking at something in the future, is it something that's leading up to it? Those are those little things. When people come to my office and they sit down and they say, "I'm stressed." We talk about things like that. You'd be surprised at how, if your job is always doing it a certain way and somebody came in and said,"We're gonna have a software to do it." And you now have to learn the software. And now it's like, that can affect you in a way that makes it hard to have other things function appropriately at home and in your personal life. So when we went, so I own a small production company. We have a very small team, but we're very tight and we work pretty efficiently.- Just to clarify, when you say small, do you mean like they're all very small people?- Yes.- Okay.- Yeah.- So what makes you think that?- 15 small people.- 15 small people.- But no, so we, when we all had to work from home, we had to change our practice on like, how were we gonna, we were in the office 40 hours a week, all of us, we all saw each other, unless someone was out on production, on a production shoot, they'd see us at the end of the day or the next day. But we had a system, a very, very, a workflow to get the projects done on time at the quality that we wanted to. So then when we all had to work from home, we kinda, we stumbled for a bit there. Well, also there was no work for a moment and then it came back and we were still stuck at home. So we had to figure out how do we get this stuff? How do we keep our quality? How do we keep, how do we keep our files? How do you organize all this stuff? You can't yet, I'm sure tomorrow we will be able to, but you can't edit from the cloud. You can't store every single thing that you ever shoot in the cloud, not 4K footage, raw, tons of footage. And so we've had to figure out ways to work around that. So we brought in new software and it was affordable at the time. It was like, oh, okay, cool. Eight bucks a month, per user. And you add it on and then you're like, all right, cool. This is gonna work. And then as time goes on, they raise their price, they raise their price and we're back in the office and we're still using the same service. And then you realize, hey, we're spending a ton of money on this one service. It's kind of, like it's got to a point where we can't live without it. But really we could because we used to operate without it. So I had to make the tough decision. I mean, I would rather cut software than I would rather cut an employee or cut their pay or do anything like that. So I had to make the hard decision to say, hey, I'm gonna add some stress to your life by cutting this software off and we're gonna have to figure out how to do without it. And that did add a lot of stress. It added a lot of stress because some of the people that had joined us weren't with us before when we were in the office. So it was just the kind of like a whole new reinventing the production company again, as far as workflow goes. So it was a challenge and very stressful, but I tried to be as empathetic as possible with like, hey, we're gonna do this in three months. Let's slowly do this one project at a time. We're gonna start phasing out how we're gonna do stuff and we'll figure it out as we go so we can all have a happy workflow. We're finally there, but man, it was stressful. It was tough. It was really tough on me and then just having to hear everyone else complain about it or not get it, not understand. That was tough.- And I mean, could you imagine, like if you were to go find out how many people, I mean, if you're already at a point in a job where you're like, I've got one foot out the door, I can't handle this nonsense for whatever reason, and then something like that happens, I could definitely see where it would push people away out of a company, right? I think the other part too is that when we have these, one of the things about stress that is always really interesting to me is stress can create an environment where sort of the worst of people come out. And we see it a lot of times, we'll see somebody, like they always hear about the Karens. And like when I see people that are just losing their shit over something that's kind of small, I don't see that as they're a jerk. I see that as there's something else happening in their world that this is what they're manifesting, they're projecting what all that's happening onto this smaller thing.- So it's pent up bad energy.- Oh, it's kind of like me getting just like, I hate the world because I have to know these different passwords. I mean, literally at one time, I looked at my wife and I said, the world just needs to burn.- But you don't know the password to make it burn.- And that was, I mean, that was completely, that was so not even realistic that I was at that level of it. But that's what happens in these things when we talk about technology and how that stuff happens, how that stress occurs. And I think that the part that I see so there's another one that I think happens in creative. I think it happens in development and creative endeavors, things like that. It's called techno insecurity. And it's the fear of being looked at as less intelligent because you don't know the software or you don't know the technology. And that's one of the things that I have wanted to avoid in doing this project because I think it's sort of funny when we mess up. But I also think that it's neat to make mistakes because we get to learn, can you hear me tapping? Make mistakes 'cause you get to learn how to do it differently. I love mistakes. We used to in our studio years ago, one of our common things we would always say is what mistake are you gonna make today? And it's not because we were really good at making mistakes. It was that those were really good learning opportunities to do something different.- Yeah, I mean--- You don't know until you don't know.- There's an art to imperfection.- Absolutely.- Yeah.- And so techno insecurity is that thing where we do I know that.- Fit the expectations, fit what is out there, fit the algorithm of life where you feel that you have to keep up by doing it the way everyone else does it, understanding it the way everyone else does it or better.- Yeah. It's like technological, what's the word? We said it, we talked about it earlier. Oh, imposter syndrome, technological imposter syndrome.- Yeah.- Which is a terrible thing. I see it in a lot of, I see it in mental health, I see it in creative environments. That imposter syndrome is terrible and it holds so many people back. And I think that's one of the things with this, it's probably one of my like sort of behind the scenes kind of goal is to avoid, or looking at imposter syndrome as this is information that's telling me I need to do it. You know? Like at first I started kind of getting a little bit sort of ramped up, you know, stress wise with putting it out there.- Yeah.- Thinking, oh, this person, somebody's gonna read, somebody's not right. Even to the point now where I'm like, is my, like I don't wanna like share it, I wanna see how far it goes without us, without at least me letting my support network, that sounds terrible, but my network of people know what's going on'cause I wanna see how it happens naturally.- Exactly, no, I don't, I'm in the same boat. I'm not looking for sympathy listens, I guess.- Yeah.- I really want it to just grow on its own and if it doesn't grow, it's fine. It's not something that really will affect me. I'm just enjoying the actual act of doing this.- Yeah, and that's what our goal was when we started.- And watching you get stressed is pretty fun.- I'm sure it is.(laughing)- So.- Are you measuring it by the amount of gray on my beard?- Yeah, totally. So just, you know, I know this is a little off topic, but we were talking about how long we should keep these podcasts and I know that's something that we've been talking about and maybe we should talk about on the podcast.- Maybe so.- How long should we make these?- Well, first, we first started talking though for a little while, about.- Yeah, about 15 minutes maybe.- Okay.- Yeah.- Okay.- I don't know, I mean, do we need to worry about it? I mean, that's the thing, I mean, it's kind of weird because it's like, I mean, a two hour podcast is a lot. I don't know if anybody really want to listen to that, listen to us jaw at that stuff, but you know, it's, again, is that our imposter syndrome, is that our anxiety saying, oh, people won't listen to it? Do we care if people don't listen to it?- That's true, yeah. We're not trying to fit some.- You ever listen to a Joe Rogan podcast? They're like marathons.- Yeah, I think I just get through clips instead. I can't do a whole episode.- I think that's the intent though, they get clips.- Yeah, which I guess works for the algorithm.- For the algorithm.- Yeah.(laughing)- So the last technology technofrence factor is called techno uncertainty. And that's, it's an unpredictable nature of technology advancements. So look at the airlines, look at what was that? Crowd.- Cloud strike.- Cloud strike.- Yeah.- Pretty aptly named, I guess.(laughing) Right?- Yeah.- So that's one of those, the uncertainty of it. And I think that, I think the uncertainty comes with, when I was setting all this stuff up last night, I had to create these other accounts. And I was, I had to literally, I was like, there's no way I can figure out if this is gonna mess up any of my other stuff. I'm just gonna have to just dive in and let it happen.- Yeah.- And then figure it out later. And that was stressful. So even in that small amount of time last night, when I realized, oh, we have to do something for this podcast to get it to where people can listen to it. I went through like all of these and it was stressful.- Yeah.- But I, you know, and it's still, I mean, I was like this morning, the first thing I did when I got up, I went on to Spotify to see if it, if it loaded the episode, which isn't healthy.- Yeah.- You know? But that's where we are with that stuff.- Well, I keep refreshing the stats page. Nothing's changed since we started.(laughs) I think that the--- But maybe once it's on Spotify, it'll pick up.- It might be.- Yeah.- It might be.- Fingers crossed.(laughs)- Fingers crossed. I think that the, I think the important part with techno stress and just stress in general, but the important part that, you know, when you do these things, especially if you're running your own business, is we know it's stressful. We know it's, and I think what makes it more stressful is you're, a piece of you is put into that. And we want people to see us a certain way.- Yeah, that's true.- And that increases that stress. And so where you can find places that identify the stress as happening, I think that allows us to be a little, be a little softer on ourselves when we start getting really ramped up. You know? All of these, like trying to set up the passwords and all the worries about that deal, and how are we gonna make this happen, how are we gonna make this happen? Knowing that what I'm experiencing is because of the technology, the ubiquitousness of technology today. It is so part of our lives. And it's unfortunate because we can't really get away from it at this point. And so all we can really do is know that it's there and how do we manage it.- Instead of it managing us.- Yeah. - Yeah.- Even to the point where there's research that shows like digital detoxing, like I'm gonna shut everything off, that actually can cause anxiety. That's how, what level we're at at this point in time. So it's one of those where you have to kind of find your best sort of, you know, we set boundaries with it. You know, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna shut everything off during this period of time. I'm gonna do a digital detox, I'm gonna take the phone away here, I'm not gonna have the technology here. You know, I'm gonna do things that are more lo-fi. You know?- Which I think only a Gen Xer could appreciate and understand.- Probably. - Yeah.- I miss those days sometimes.- Yeah, I think my 18 year old, he says he wishes that we were in those times and I'm like, yeah, but you don't.- Yeah.- Like he doesn't realize what it would be. I mean, he's holding his phone as he's saying this.- Yeah.- He's got one AirPod in his ear and he's, yeah, I mean, there's just, there's a lot, there's a lot that would be missing that he would totally miss more than that. But I know I would love that. But then you have to reinvent your whole thought process. Like right now we have access to so much information, we're exposed to so much, but then we can expose ourselves to others.- Yeah.- Hopefully not in a bad way, but yeah. But we have this, you know, because of the technology and the internet and all that. So it's like, how do you, we'd be basically going and trying to save up a bunch of money to buy an FM transmitter and start a radio station and that's a stress in itself. So yeah, it'd be tough. It'd be really tough to go back to those times if you wanted to do everything that we do now, but in that lo-fi world.- Yeah.- It'd be tough, but it's doable and sure, it might actually have to happen at some point in time.- Yeah, I'm sure it will.- We don't know when, but with the lo-fi sort of world, thinking about how you can structure your time with that, right, like, you know, that's sort of one of those things that when we start seeing that like this techno stress is really starting to ramp up and getting really painful or affecting our day to day or preventing us from doing the things we enjoy, it's nice having the ability to say, well, what can you do that you used to do before that? You know? And for some people, they can't think of anything. And I feel sort of sad, I feel sad about our kids not having a period of time when they didn't have phones in their hands or they didn't have the internet or these different pieces where there's a difference of an appreciation for downtime. I have a hard time sometimes when I want to like downtime, it's sometimes it's like, okay, well, my downtime is gonna be, I'm just not gonna be on my phone, but I'm still gonna be on the computer. If somebody watching TV, whichever it is. And there's this whole, so one of the things that's really interesting about the research behind all that is like, we think, okay, well, kids are on their phone more and that that's a bad thing. And that people are on their phones or on their iPads more when they're like killing time than they would before. The reality is when you look at the amount of TV people used to watch opposed to today, really all we're doing when we're distracting with technology is we're just replacing the task of TV to that. There's a lot of data that shows there might be a problem, but it doesn't necessarily show that it actually is a problem, which is kind of, it's like, are we making that a problem? And that's sort of interesting when we look at the technology and the stress of technology is that that's even a whole another thing. And we would probably even be worthy of a whole different podcast of how does technology affect parenting? Which I think is a worthy discussion.- Yeah.- 'Cause parenting can be funny. I'm really good at being a bad parent.- Oh, I'm the best.- I don't know, man.(laughing) Challenge accepted.- We could save that for the next one for sure.- Shout out to the one listener who stuck around till the end. You're awesome. Subscribe, leave a review and share your thoughts. We want you to like us, but we need validation. Catch you next time.(upbeat music)